All the 20/20 hindsight revelations regarding Cho Seung-Hui, the shooter in the Virginia Tech massacre, are disturbing, especially for teachers. But... darkly violent and/or sexual writings by college students are common. Talk to any creative writing teacher, and I'll wager that they've had at least one student whose writings were so disturbing that they were worried -- even to the extent that Cho's teachers were worried. I have had them myself. Every other teacher I know has had them as well.

Yet none of them have led to anything like this. The truth is that the vast majority of such dark, violent writing is a sign of nothing of sognificance, and the very few that are more serious and indicate a genuinely troubled young person won't lead to mass murder. As a teacher, you try to do what you can. You try to help in any way you can, any way the student will let you. Usually, hopefully, it works, at least to some degree.

For that matter, I've published a fair amount of dark and violent fiction myself -- look at any of my "Puppetman" stories for the WILD CARDS series. But (believe it not) I'm not likely to go purchase a Glock 9mm and go on a rampage. Hell, I'm largely in the anti-gun camp.

The writing alone isn't a sign. You need to know not only the writing but the writer before you can make any kind of judgment. And even then, you might be wrong.

Dark, violent writing? Means very little, especially for teenagers and young adults who are filled with angst and are struggling to find themselves. What I fear is that we'll get a backlash reaction from this, with a public outcry and perhaps regulations about reporting 'violent' writing to authorities, or banning 'violent' literature and entertainment.

That would be a mistake.

It's easy, once something like this has happened, for everyone to look back and be the Perfect Psychologist and see all the flaws in the killer's personality. Everything becomes A Sign Of Trouble. We beat our chests and wail "Why didn't everyone see this before it happened?"

You can't see it because it's only there when you look backward. You can't see it because it's foolish to think that every little character twitch in someone you know means he's a mass murderer. You can't live your life in constant fear and suspicion... because if you do that, you've become them.

From: [identity profile] greenmtnboy18.livejournal.com


my thoughts exactly, re: dark violent writing and high school/college students :-(

*sigh*

and it makes me fearful too, of the backlash :-(

From: [identity profile] lauriemann.livejournal.com


The backlash against dark student writings happened at least since Colombine. And some of the VATech teachers tried to get the kid some help. He just didn't want any. From what little bits I've heard of his video (I refuse to really watch it), it's clear he was not taking any responsibility for his actions, and was trying to blame society.

From: [identity profile] sleigh.livejournal.com


You can offer a hand; but the other person has to grab onto it...

From: [identity profile] deireanach.livejournal.com


I believe that if there is a backlash against violent writing, it will be driven by the fears of people who merely want a Clear Sign (tm) that they can point to and say, "That one. Fix/lock up/cure him, and everything will be All Better (tm)."

It's shallow thinking, but tempting because it seems easy and obvious and doable. Unfortunately, people are endlessly unique and are adept at presenting themselves as more 'normal' than they are. At the same time, others outside the person are just as good at rationalizing away errant behavior as eccentricity, as opposed to instability.

If there is anything I feel is hopeful about this incident, it is that Cho was recognized by his professors and other authorities as having some severe problems. The fact that they did not recognize the acute and explosive nature of his issues is tragic. I sincerely hope that he provides us all with the means of advancing one more step toward identifying these people before the next one goes boom. In something like this, every little bit counts.

From: [identity profile] sleigh.livejournal.com


Well said.

I don't think you really can identify those who are 'explosive' and likely to harm other. Those are the rarest types. I heard a psychologist being interviewed on NPR this morning who claims that we've no better than a 1 in 4 chance of identifying someone like Cho, nor can you force someone to undergo counseling or to take medication unless they're incarcerated. I'm not willing to toss four people in jail in order to stop one person from possibly, possibly doing harm to others at some future time and date.

From: [identity profile] sleigh.livejournal.com


Glad you found it interesting... but I'm lazy enough to probably do no more than I've done with it.

From: [identity profile] ellameena.livejournal.com


Actually, his English professor did see something different in his writing--and she obviously has a lot of experience teaching the subject. She tried to have him removed from the class because he was scaring her and the other students in the class with his writing and his behavior. There's a difference between stories that have merely violent themes or scenes, and those that show an obsession with violence and death. It's true that you can't go reporting every student to the police that exhibits signs of angst or violence in writings, but it also seems to be the case that dangerously mentally ill people are often driven to express themselves in written form. So the situation is that English teachers are going to be "first responders". If that response is compassionate and humane, it should be of no harm to a person who is not ill, but simply exploring violence in their writing. They will be able to explain themselves and possibly moderate the sort of work they are turning in if it's causing a problem in class. It's only a problem if it's punitive. For example, if someone is expelled or punished based only on their writing, as has happened a couple of times since Columbine. But as the basis for a referral to a counselor who could intervene in a respectful way, I think it's absolutely appropriate.

Also, have you kept in touch with the ones who were turning out disturbingly violent work in order to confirm that none of them have ever been involved in violent crime or suffered psychological problems? For that matter, how do you know that they weren't suffering from psychological problems at the time you saw them in class? Medical confidentiality laws make it kind of impossible for you to know that, wouldn't you agree?

From: [identity profile] ellameena.livejournal.com


I want to add that I have someone in my life who is a very disturbed person, has a diagnosis of mental illness, owns a gun, and has been writing very sick and weird stuff for a long time, which for some reason is accepted by others as standard horror genre stuff.

From: [identity profile] sleigh.livejournal.com


"It's true that you can't go reporting every student to the police that exhibits signs of angst or violence in writings..."

Actually, the police can do nothing at all unless there's a direct threat. Doesn't matter how violent the writing is -- we have free speech here (which, by the way, I am fully in agreement with), and you can write stuff that's as violent in content as you want, but unless there's a direct threat to someone, there's nothing the police can or will do.

"It's only a problem if it's punitive. For example, if someone is expelled or punished based only on their writing..."

But it's not necessarily even a problem then. Most people, even certifiably mentally ill ones, don't go off on killing rampages. That's rare... thankfully.

"Also, have you kept in touch with the ones who were turning out disturbingly violent work in order to confirm that none of them have ever been involved in violent crime or suffered psychological problems? For that matter, how do you know that they weren't suffering from psychological problems at the time you saw them in class? Medical confidentiality laws make it kind of impossible for you to know that, wouldn't you agree?"

In some cases, yes I have kept in touch with those turning out violent work, because they'll take another class of mine. But not all, no. You're right, however, that privacy laws preclude a teacher from knowing if a student has been or is currently undergoing counseling or treatment. I know (because they've told me) that I've had bipolar students in class, or students being treated for depression. That's to be expected.

My point's not that the writing can't be symptomatic of trouble, only that a) the writing by itself tells you very little without also knowing (personally) the person doing the writing, and b) that you can't live your life being frightened or terrified of this kind of incident happening to you, because the odds are greatly in your favor that such will never happen to you. If I have a student who is a great enough problem that I feel he should be removed from class, then I want the administration to do that... but I don't want rules and regulations that I have to report every student who has violent content in his (or rarely, her) writing.

In my syllabus for every class, I have a statement that gratuitous violence is not permitted, and that the decision as to whether something is gratuitously violent is mine alone to make. That gives me leverage to pull a student's work if necessary. I've only have to invoke it a few times...

From: [identity profile] ellameena.livejournal.com


"It's only a problem if it's punitive. For example, if someone is expelled or punished based only on their writing..."

By this, I meant responding to violent writings is only a problem if the response is punitive. There have been cases where students were expelled on the basis of a story they had written. In my opinion, that is never okay and only exacerbates any potential problem. If it is a concerned response, and no punishments are associated with the writing, then I think it is actually good to respond to what you see or think you see in the story. Whether to respond, and the level of response, should be at the discretion of the teacher. I think at heart, it is an issue of a gut feeling. There is no list of words or phrases that you could point to that would separate a monster from a regular person. And that works both ways. You can't make an assumption that a person is okay based on a casual relationship. You also can't assume they are sick from something they have written.

From: [identity profile] cakmpls.livejournal.com


I agree entirely. I'm seeing a frightening resurgence of "I want to live in a perfectly safe society" in the aftermath of these shootings. Frightening, because the unspoken addition is [at any cost].
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