The Veep Debate

[sleigh]

My quick, initial impression? I think the Republicans are going to be ecstatic because Palin came across far better than the Couric interview had people expecting. I think Democrats are going to be disappointed for the same reason. I think anyone who judges a debate by who had the more substantive answers will think Biden won, and that anyone who likes folksy answers about how things aren't really all that complicated and gosh darn if we just pull together everything can be solved will think Palin won.

I think we'll have to wait to see what the only important people -- the undecided voters -- think.

Comments

[greenmtnboy18.livejournal.com]

Thanks for posting so quickly, Steve. I was waiting for you. ;)

(Couldn't deal with watching the thing, but wanted to hear a take on how it came out, from someone whose opinion I trust.)

Now I can go to bed.

[barondave.livejournal.com]

As I've been saying in other posts: How can you be for "change you believe in" when you go out of your way to ignore the past?

Palin reassured the "base" (though maybe not on gay civil unions), but we knew she wasn't that dumb when prepared.

They both stumbled a lot, but I must I really liked "O'Biden".

[daedala.livejournal.com]

I don't think the undecided voters are terribly important; by all accounts, there aren't that many of them.

It's the undecided to vote voters that are terribly important.

[maiac.livejournal.com]

Too lazy to go back and get the links... but CBS and CNN instant-response polls give it to Biden by about 20 points.

Oh, and McCain's giving up on Michigan. Canceled an appearance and is reported to be firing the campaign staff.

[scbutler.livejournal.com]

He killed her. The Republican base will say she won, a few undecideds will go her way, but even more will go his.

[chamois-shimi.livejournal.com]

I hated her McCain this, McCain that, McCain thinks this, McCain does that ... I thought it was supposed to be the VICE presidential candidates' debate. :P

[jbru.livejournal.com]

Was it just me or was she completely unable to stay on topic?

[smofbabe.livejournal.com]

I was very disappointed that the moderator didn't drag them back on topic, especially when she asked about the mortgage crisis and Palin decided to talk about energy instead.

I agree that Palin did what she had to do, which is convince Americans she wasn't a complete airhead and not produce any blatant gaffes that would zip around the Internet. Therefore, I don't think it really matters that Biden won the actual debate in terms of substantive answers. I was proud of him, though: no gaffes and no rambling. And the moment when he choked up when he talked about his son seemed genuinely moving and not rehearsed.

[rmeidaking.livejournal.com]

See, in this one, we weren't watching to see who would win, we were watching to see who would implode. On the surface, no one did. However, on the Ability To Stay On Topic question, Sarah Palin failed utterly. On the Ability To Look Exciting, Joe Biden failed utterly. On the Ability to Look Like You Know The Topic question, however, Joe Biden won outright. It was clear that he had a better grasp of every topic out there than Sarah Palin did.

The bottom line question is Who Will Undecided Voters Think Won? I don't know. I have to go look at the overnight polls to figure that out, and they won't be posted for another few hours.

[sleigh.livejournal.com]

Have a good night's sleep!

[sleigh.livejournal.com]

There may still be enough of them that if they all tend to vote the same way, they could tip a close state. But yes, the undecided-to-vote people are always important too.

[sleigh.livejournal.com]

A 20% point difference surprises me, honestly. It would indicate that a lot of people have already firmly made up their minds. I wonder if later polls will show that wide a gap.

The Michigan information is interesting...

[sleigh.livejournal.com]

That's what I would say as well, but I'll admit to a certain prejudice on the subject. :-)

[sleigh.livejournal.com]

Usually the Veep debate (at least as I remember them) are always mostly about the presidential candidates, though Palin certainly referenced McCain far more than Biden did Obama. It was far safer for her that way, as she has no experience with many of the subjects, and (I assume) only the limited knowledge she been able to cram in during the last few weeks.

[sleigh.livejournal.com]

She had her speechlets and anticipated responses all prepared, and if the topic or question didn't have such, she just jumped back into a memorized response.

You could see Biden doing the same -- it's just that he's been doing this for far longer and has a much wider and deeper breadth of knowledge.

[sleigh.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately for those of us with liberal leanings, the debate format was was favorable for Palin: short responses, little opportunity for follow-up. You could see, a couple times, that she had run out of things to say on the subject and was just filling the time with repetition, unnecessary additional phrases, and gibberish.

If the format had been that of the presidential debates, she would have (I think) had far more trouble.

I agree, the moment when Biden choked up was the only bit of real emotion and feeling during the entire debate -- and it may just be that moment when viewers thought they glimpsed the geniune person behind the facade. If that's the case, then Biden will be considered the winner.

[sleigh.livejournal.com]

As I said, if you want substantive answer, Biden won. Hands down.

Only the undecideds' opinions count, though.

[sleigh.livejournal.com]

I noticed the O'Biden also... :-)

[maiac.livejournal.com]

Supposedly the people in the instant-response poll were independents, "uncommitted".

A friend was watching CNN so she could track the "response meters". She said that the meters generally went up (favorable reaction) when Biden spoke. Whenever Palin piled on the folksiness, the reaction plunged.

[sleigh.livejournal.com]

Like you, I'm one of those 'liberal elites,' and to me, whenever the 'folksiness' goes up, the content accordingly goes down. I don't want folksiness, I want to know that the candidate actually understands the complexity and the nuances of the issues. Telling me that to solve the economic crisis, all those "soccer moms" and "Joe six-packs" must "band together" is bullshit with no content.

Interesting that CNN's response group would feel the same -- that's a hopeful sign. Still, I assume her 'cute' folksiness must play well somewhere...

[maiac.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking that Palin's performance, especially the "I'm just one of the people of the land" act rescued "the base" from despair but didn't fool anybody who was looking for substance not soundbites.

If what the viewers remember best is what they saw last, i.e. the last 5-10 minutes of the debate, then Biden ate her lunch. His statement about knowing what it's like to worry about his family went right to the heart, and she responded by ignoring it. Her closing statement was a dump of every leftover talking point, with no attempt to make a point. His closing statement was, by ghod, a closing statement, summarizing his entire case for Obama and against McCain.

[scbutler.livejournal.com]

I admit to the same prejudice.

And what's your take on the latest version of the bailout bill? I'm thinking that, except for the FDIC increase, it's worse.

[elfs.livejournal.com]

I think you're giving the viewers too little credit. As we've been listening to the pundits, we've been asked to, well, "grade on a curve." If she did better than expected, we're supposed to think she won.

But the viewers don't think "Hey, she did better than expected." They're thinking "Hey, she went off prepared talking points on 3x5 cards and she seemed a little slow and dimwitted. And she's trying to be one 72 year old heartbeat away from the Presidency."

[madtruk.livejournal.com]

I think, Steve, that you're being overly pessimistic, which, after the last election, is easy to do.

Biden won. He smacked around McCain and only had 1-2 wonkish answers. Her 'folksiness' was forced (noticeably) and her reference to Biden's wife (a teacher) "getting her reward in heaven" drove me insane.

Um where was I? Oh right. I watched CNN online just to see the Ohio lines, and Biden won that debate by letting loose. She lost it by speaking rote memorized lines.

Huh. Maybe she should have had a better teacher who earned more here on earth.

[sleigh.livejournal.com]

Hope you're right!

[sleigh.livejournal.com]

It sucks. The pork attached to the bill is disgusting, frankly, and I actually wish Obama had said "We must pass a bill. It's essential for the economy, but I can't hold my nose tightly enough to vote for this one."

And the other hand, that McCain voted for it contradicts his often-repeated stance against earmarks, and will probably hurt him with his own base.

[sleigh.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree that Biden won handily. I'm just trying to be fair -- Palin's performance, I believe, will have gone a long way toward reassuring her base. She still has some trouble shoving a verb up against a noun, and she still doesn't show much depth to her understanding of issues, but she at least didn't appear to be totally baffled and inarticulate. It's a low, low bar, but she stepped over it.

But yes, all the polls today are showing that Biden wins this one. Quite handily, in fact.

[sleigh.livejournal.com]

And yes, that line about "reward in heaven" made me crazy also. It would have been a total mistake, but I wanted Biden to retort "Actually, her reward is right here in this world, seeing her students succeed."

[scbutler.livejournal.com]

Anything that hurts McCain is fine by me.

The additions to the bill are one of the reasons I wanted it to pass on the first try. In normal circumstances there's nothing wrong with a little horse trading, but in times of crisis you'd like Congress to focus on the matter at hand.

[parsleigh.livejournal.com]

Weird, but I was thinking about Biden's dead wife when she said the reward in heaven...I was thinking how insensitive to make that reference to him. I know she was talking about teachers in general but I still thought of the late Mrs. Biden.